Bagel Bag
I received a few emails this week from readers curious about new development in Harlem and the general state of the real estate market here. Here's one I thought I'd share:
"We are thinking to move up to Harlem, basically we have selected the Lenox Grand on Lenox Avenue. What is your opinion of the area and the prices? My daughter and her husband may buy in The Lenox, its a bit less money but a larger building. Not sure who is moving up and not sure if the prices in both are too high for the current housing bust all over the City. Do you see Harlem as a positive for real estate investing right now, or do you think the prices will come down?"
Thoughts?
posted by Rachel Natalie Klein at 8:01 AM
23 Comments:
People buy real estate for two reasons, the first is a place to live, and the second is as an investment. This family sounds reasonably well off, but in the present market a one bdrm apt in most of the city starts at $599K. I think while the price in the Lenox and the Lenox Grand may seem high, history will prove that they were actually reasonable. Consider the folks that bought in Chelsea and the village before they were established neighborhoods. It seemed like they were spending a lot, but in retrospect they made an excellent investment. I am not saying that Harlem will be Chelsea or the Village, but the neighborhood will continue to improve, and the investment will reap a nice return.
Regarding the quality of life issues, the folks in these buildings may have to do without certain conveniences for a little while. There are no Whole foods, but there is a fairway, and a couple Pathmarks. However, as Harlem continues to transform, they will definitely reap the benefits. More wealth will move to Harlem, more necessary services will follow, a few big name hotels will end up on or near 125th street, and Manhattan Ville will happen. Overall, I think this is a great buy for ten years or more, not for a short-term stint.
'Kris Boog'
Agreed, the market has cooled and nowhere is a good short term.
But Harlem is a good long-term investment, lots of upside, new condos coming to market the demographics are changing.
With the smart money recently investing in large rental complex, they obviously see good long term prospects.
Harlem has seen services slow to arrive, this section of Lenox is now getting retail interest.
Also safe and notably improving in this area, along with the new Macys.
I think if someone is buying in Harlem to reap an investment they have missed the boat of the big pay outs although they will likely get a nice return if they hold onto the property for a while. I don't think the prices will drop just yet. IMO we are pretty much at the peak. Anyone moving to Harlem should be prepared to live the way Harlemites live. That means less conveniences than were had downtown. Plain and simple...there are fewer good groceries, fewer restaurants and fewer services in general. However, it is rich in history and culture and if you want to be part of the community you must invest not just financially but personally. Too many people are coming into Harlem complaining but not doing anything to improve it for the residents. Bringing the money up to Harlem means spending in the community as well. I'll tell you, once you find that favorite cleaners, bank, etc. you will feel a part of the community. Get involved. There are plenty of organizations. Harlem is different but is a vital community full of good people once you look beyond the negative.
im also a new buyer in the area - bought in a new development as well. all of our new nieghbors are similar to us (professional, mid-30's average age, no young children) and are in it for the both the long term investment (at least 5 years if not longer) and the benifit of more bang for your buck than you'd get downtown. we're all pretty community oriented, and looking to get involved locally to do what we can to contribute positively. so that's been my experience with "who's buying" in these places.
fresh direct delivers, the subway is close, cabs are abundant. it's really just like living anywhere else, except public transportation could not be easier and more convienant.
my perspective on the lenox grand is that the price per square foot is on the high end, but the new offer that the developer will pick up all closing costs, including transfer tax, will save you tens of thousands of dollars, so you have to take that into account. we paid over 30K in closing costs, so you have to add that into the overall price. also, if im not mistaken, there's parking available for sale in that building, which is a great investment, and it's at a lower price than most in the area.
but i wouldnt be surprised if the prices came down more in that building, as it seems they've had a very hard time selling. i really am not sure why, except that my own experience looking there---which was that there were similar or better places in the area that were priced better. right now, there's 10 mt morris park and the lofts 124 - both really beautiful places, and priced similarly if not lower ppsf than the lenox grand.
we've been very happy in our new place, and have not run into any trouble in the neighborhood. but people eye our building, and from time to time, you can tell people arent so happy to see you in "their" neighborhood.
my perception is tha the lenox and the lenox grand have drawn a lot of ire from the community, only becasue they are SO high profile, both sitting accross from each other as they do.
it cant hurt to do your homework and see more places in the area-but if you really like the lenox grand, it's as good a place as any other-the prices are mostly comprable when you consider the closing costs being covered by the developer.
i would not buy downtown right now, as prices have not gone down nearly to what they will do-but the prices in harlem cant really go that much lower, as they're already pretty low compared to city wide average. if you're willing to live in your new home for up to 10 years, there is much more potential profit uptown, as you're starting lower, then downtown, where prices may go down some, but will probably not ever go up as much as they have over the past 5 years.
I agree with most of the posts regarding Harlem and the notion it's a great long term investment... But one of the comments alluded to Harlem's demo and its perceived change as a positive variable... When you purchase a property regardless of community but especially in the case of Harlem, you are literally buying into that communtiy... Harlem's rich history and culture are deemed a national treasure to most African Americans... Please understand that the "welcomed" influx of new business & residents will not change the very nature of this legendary community... You're buying into Harlem... As it was, as it is, and as it will always be...
could not agree more. i think no matter the demo you fit into, if you move to harlem you should accept that it is an african american treasure, should be valued as such, and that no matter how much it gentrifies, it will always be that. there are enough middle and upper class black homeowners already in harlem to pretty much guarantee that. and if you're white and you move there, and you are waiting for the day when it's "more like downtown" - you shouldnt come.
No neighborhood has ever remained static, especially in Manhattan, to suppose Harlem is the exception is a flawed idea.
Harlem has also changed over time, in recent years and over a much longer period. Part of Harlem’s history is black, but that is not the whole story, and I doubt it is the whole future as we are now seeing.
Some see the preservation of Harlem rooted in being unwelcome to non blacks, as we have sadly seen on these blogs. Part of Harlem’s proud black history is civil rights.
Keeping Harlem unwelcome to non blacks is contradictory to the civil rights movement of last century and 21st century America
Therein lies the rub.
The Lenox & Lenox Grand are poor choices and appreciably overpriced. Note the Grand has had to impliment a 5% down and covering closing cost incentive as of late (and they only have 19 units).
Think about it, in this city of several thousand looking to buy condos the Lenox and its 77 units and the Grand and its 19 units can't sell after a year on the market at prices the vast majority of Manhattan people looking to buy consider dirt cheap ($600+ ppsf).
Terrible Locations, both of them. Okay, you move to Harlem you sacrifice in not having amenities. But with the Lenox & Grand, you also sacrifice having parks and that should not be. If you have a dog, forget it, that dog is going to get used to concrete.
Seriously, if you're going to buy condo inventory in Harlem, there is lots and lots of condo inventory adjacent to Mt. Morris Park, Morningside Park, etc. There is value in being within a block of a park, that's value the Lenox and Grand don't have. There's value in being on the corner or a block away to a subway station, again, that's value the Lenox and Grand don't have.
Even strategically, there' value in buying within walking proximity for that Columbia University has planned going forward in Harlem. A Condo near Morningside Park for example is a condo that will benefit from CU walking proximity, etc. The Grand and the Lenox don't even have this value.
They're just terrible locations, in a large nabe (Harlem) that has lots and lots of far better locations. Another lousy deal with the Lenox is the street it's on, the corner?...is lined with tenament buildings. There will be no pride of ownership on that block between Lenox and 5th. It's not like a lovely home-owner lined block of Harlem.
Last week in the NYT an article addressed how Credit Suisse First Boston has a new litmus test for investment worthy (for development) areas of Manhattan and certain amenities must be within 3 blocks. One was a grocery store, etc...and there are others. This is all documented in the NYT last week, not my opinion. The Lenox and Grand do not meet the Credit Suisse First Boston criteria of investment worthy, I think that's significant and any potential buyer must explore why banks have such criteria.
If I were looking for a Harlem Condo I would focus on the inventory near Morningside Park first, within 2 blocks of Central Park second, and near Mt Morris Park 3rd, 129th & Lenox Ave would be far down on the list for a muriad of reasons, some of which I've outlined, believe me, there are more.
Lastly, and this is critical. The vast majority of the new condo and coop inventory to enter the Harlem Market since 2000 (Tubman, Renaissance, Parks, etc.) has been lottery driven subsidized/perked housing, not open market housing.
The Harlem luxury condo market is not established, it's not set, not proven, not solid. Major & very significant incentives / no brainer to buy incentives (a contrived and artificial market) is what the majority of the recent new condo inventory of Harlem is.
It produced a false perception of demand and value. There really is no foundation whatsoever to assert Harlem can support a $600+ ppsf condo market.
Read that NYT article last week and you'll see Harlem is a 2nd tier market that a lot of insiders are trying to get out of (development money) as of late. Again, not my opinion, the quotes in that NYT article.
To the commenter who posted at 9:35 AM, no one in this thread has suggested keeping Harlem unwelcomed to outsiders. What ppl have been suggesting is making certain that you are ready to embrace the rich culture and history of the neighborhood and community at large. To put it bluntly, don't try to come into the neighborhood in order to make it another UWS. You will face opposition no matter how good you think it will be for improvement. It's a fine balance between moving uptown and taking over uptown.The take over is what long time residents and those who respect Harlem's heritage fear most.
OK 11:26 am, whoever you are, why don't you finally tell us what your motive is for throwing dirt at the neighborhood, and particularly the Lenox and Lenox Grand?
* Do you have a bet with anyone that apartments won't sell?
* Are you hoping they'll slash prices further so you can buy in for cheap?
* Or do you, perhaps, have a property on Morningside park that's been sitting, and you want to redirect some limelight?
I am sick and tired of reading your "litmus test" BS - first on curbed, then here, then on curbed - again! - and then here, again!
We got it, OK? You can read, or at least you read one article in the Times. So what?
Don't you have better things to do with your time but write these Dostoyevski-length novels that, let me say, I personally find an absolute waste of time?
I apologize for interrupting the constructive and helpful atmosphere on this particular thread, but my patience with Mr. Litmus seems to have melted.
1:12pm, not this thread, but other threads on this blog have had openly unwelcome messages to whites, look back, very interesting, especially from a place with civil rights history.
Personally, I love Harlem just the way it is but would like to see some change.
1) Get rid of the whitey haters
2) Better schools
3) More dining choices
4) More food markets
5) Book stores
What is the ideal future of Harlem??
a) crime ridden ghetto
b) UWS copy
c) Middle class black only
d) Ethnically diverse
e) Almost all white
f) Black Disneyland tourist hot spot
g) Super luxury condos and brownstones only
h) Just the way it is
I am sure you will find Harlemites whose hopes are pegged on any one of the above.
I go for h) with some adjustments
How about you ??
I definitely agree with the need for better schools. I think this is crucial to keep in the neighborhood the young professionals who seem to have endorsed it over the past year or two, and to attract more families, regardless of their race or color. For me Harlem could become the perfect family-oriented neighborhood -- and not the UWS, but better, because it actually has character! But we do need those schools.
1.16 pm, go to the Lenox Grand website and look at the median and average income of that nabe and it's going to be about $32K or so.
that's not changing without the dislocation of those low-wage earners. the amenities are not coming until a sufficient critical mass of money makers is in place to justify & support them.
people don't speak on harlem transition honestly and frankly and you simply can't have it both ways. the entrenched generational welfare class has locked in place housing and no incentive to move or improve, their numbers are huge.
people won't analyze the demographics, the institutional programs securing the demographics, and outline how amenities and improvements can come in light of these sets of issues?
Harlem condo buying should be restricted to CU proximity, a nice park (morningside/mt morris), or a subway immediately right at the corner. maybe you can find a street with pride of ownership.
Denying the content of that NYT article serves no one any value. What do you gain by having your head in the sand?
Would anyone here buy blind of the demographics and social structure of their property? I would not buy anything on a street adjacent to tenaments in any part of Manhattan.
For those not wearing rose colored glasses, the Lenox and Grand are really a "Perfect storm" of undesirable things in buying a Condo in NYC and Harlem. It's really amazing they placed those buildings there. Again, so so so many better Harlem locations...just being honest.
2:30 PM
One mixed tenement / brownstone block among many renovated brownstone blocks, open your eyes.
Corner of the Lenox condo building, block of historic wooden porch row houses, truly stunning architecture to survive in Manhattan, walk around the corner and open your eyes.
NYT article, with the smart money recently investing in large rental complex, they obviously see good long term prospects. I guess they did not ask your opinion.
You cherry pick anything negative and present it as the big picture, repeating over and over.
TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER: the sales team at the lenox grand have announced today they are now allowing "investment" purchases....meaning you can buy one of these units and rent it out to make money off of it. meaning, it's probably not a good invetment if you plan on living in it. there are tons of great new developments in harlem, i'd give a pass on this one.
and for everyone else: i think part of the reason this place is having a hard time is that the agents managing it are kind of clowns. i hated dealing with them when i was looking at their properties (the lenox grand and the 131st street places - which are now also available as investment properties.)
some guys are really racists, though they often claim they themselves are the victims. harlem got a long history, did any one mention the history and culture before the africans came? this land is not YOURS or THEIRS, people move in as they like, and no one should indeed give you too much shit as you think it's YOUR enighborhood
a few comments:
anyone that knows and understands the histroy of new york city, going back to the DUTCH settlement, understands that no one ethnic group owns any neighborhood. every nyc neighborhood has changed its ethnicity over time; while harlem has an incredibley rich african-american hisory, it doesn't mean it will stay predominantly african-american forever. look at the lower east side and its rich jewish past - for most jews in the US, there is a historical connection to the LES - but few jews live there anymore. who knows what harlem's ethnic mix will look like 10 or 20 years from now - i don't think it is a good thing or a bad thing thing if it changes - it will change, for sure, just like every single other neighborhood has in nyc over the past 300 years, that is for sure.
the comments about the poor location of the lenox and lenox grand are silly.
so , there isn't a drug store within 2 or 3 blocks? wow, such an inconvenience.
there isn't a park within a 10 minute walk - oh my god, another disaster.
people with a vision and who are willing to take a chance (nothing guaranteed) can imagine a grand lenox avenue 10 years from now - macys be developed on 125th and lenox - its a whole new ball game .
Lenox and Lenox Grand are not good choices.
If you can afford it, I would definitely go for Loft 124, or 10 Mt Morris Park. both in great locations, very close to the exoress subway, the park and Lenox avenue, and both very high quality developments.
I personally think Loft 124 is the superior of the two, but 10MMP is right on the park, which is important to some.
seems like mt morris and loft 124 are overpriced. i have looked at all, and the best value is the lenox.
if its important living on the park, then thats what you are paying for.
a 1br,1ba, no doorman at 10 mt morris costs 700k.
a 1 br, 1ba with doorman at loft 124 is also 700k - 1,226 square feet. ($700 per square foot).
a 2br, 2ba at the lenox is about 730k, with doorman, gym, small roof deck - 1350 square feet ($540 per square feet).
you decide.....
As an investment or a place to live, this neighborhood is wonderful place to live. I have been there for three years but used to live close to CU. My wife is a runner and she makes good use of central park. We also have a three year old and we spent a lot of time as a family in the park this past summer. We don't have all the bars and restaurants but when my friends, who lives in "hipper" areas w. lots of amenities come to visit and see our space they're ready to move in.
The amenities are coming. In fact, we are planning stages to open a cafe/bakery two blocks from the Grand/Lenox. I don't care what anybody says but I have the best commute to my office downtown.
Before I post my question I'd like to thank everyone for their comments. It is so important to see what people are thinking ...form all sides and procpectives.
I am thinking of buying in Harlem too and moving from NJ it is not easy. Does anyone has an opinion on a new construction of the Kalaharu building on 116th street?
Appreciate any comments.
it's the Kalahari building, and although it looks amazing on the pics, it's not in a good location. If you look at the map, there are projects surrounding it.
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